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I'm not bad, I'm just written that way.
Nov. 13th, 2006 12:05 amDiane and I have various books "about" writing; including The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler.
Our copy was misplaced a couple of days ago (now found again) and because I wanted to refer to it, I went looking on the Net to see what I could find. There are a couple of sites with PDF extracts (obviously the whole thing isn't going to be available, since it's in print) but I also found Vogler's original article, a seven-page memo written while he was a story analyst at Disney (which was applied directly to development for The Lion King; whether this was a good or bad thing is up to you.)
Since it was so short, one line jumped out at me from the memo, so much so that I doubted it was in the book at all; but yes, it's there (p.23 of the 2nd Edition.) In the memo it's about p.5 when printed out, otherwise Section 9.The Hero Seizes the Sword, and in both, Vogler's choice of words is a little sloppy.
"At this point the hero may settle a conflict with his father or with his shadowy nemesis*. In Return of the Jedi Luke is reconciled with both, as he discovers** that the dying Darth Vader is his father and not such a bad guy after all." (Emphasis mine.)
(*I personally have never considered "father" and "nemesis" sufficiently interchangeable to combine in one sentence.)
(**"Discovers"? He was told as much by Dad, and in case he and the audience still thought it was a villainous lie, had it confirmed by Yoda.)
It's fairly plain what resolution George Lucas had in mind for Luke and Vader's relationship (besides wanting to keep his cake as well as eat it - Daddy Darth is a really cool villain, and George wanted to hang onto that villainous coolness for as long as possible.) Even before I saw Return of the Jedi, I had a feeling that Vader was going to do right by Luke in the end, probably through some ironic accident that would give Vader his come-uppance and save Luke, preferably while trying again to convert or, finally convinced it would never work, kill him. Simple, satisfying and in keeping with the Saturday Morning Matinée* characterisations of the three movies. Vader was Not Nice.
(*Though often mentioned as a source for Star Wars and Indiana Jones, when I made a similar comment a few years back I had to explain it to my teenage nephew. How to feel old...)
How it actually played out could have worked if Vader had been a tragic failure tricked into wasting his life and talent, but who now couldn't do the same to his son (having killed the Emperor for suggesting Luke should take his place, not to save him.) Neither ending would leave Vader open to being described as "not such a bad guy". Redemption from more than six hours of black-masked heavy-breathing villainy shouldn't have been so simplistic - but then, Jedi had Ewoks in it, so "simplistic" was part of the territory.
Let's look at his personal body count. ("Personal" is taken to mean people (not droids) killed on-screen, even if out of frame or in another ship etc., by the character's direct action.) These figures are courtesy of Movie Body Counts, and, when looking beyond their restrictions and the limits of screen canon the count has to be much higher. Even allowing that Vogler wrote his article and based his comment on the "first" (second) three Star Wars films, Vader from the instant he stepped through that shattered doorway had gained and maintained his reputation by doing something off-camera, and it wasn't painting watercolours.
SW1 – Phantom Menace: 4 kills - pilots of Trade Federation ships. (This at the age of what, 10...? Vadekin started early.)
SW2 – Attack of the Clones : 17 kills - 3 on-screen sandpeople; 14 workers in the droid factory. (Not seen, not counted: the rest of the sandpeople tribe including women and children.)
SW3 – Revenge of the Sith : 24 kills - Count Dooku (a literally-disarmed prisoner); his own wife and various Jedi younglings (so that's what he was practicing for with the sandpeople women and kids; it's interesting to see that Lucas can be nastier than Spielberg, who tends to leave even the most annoying brats unscathed); various Trade Federation people and Jedi. (Not seen, not counted: other Trade Federation people and Jedi.)
SW4 – Star Wars : 8 kills - Captain of the consular ship (in a very hands-on way), Obi-Wan Kenobi, various X-wing pilots. (Not seen, not counted: anybody else whose lack of faith he found disturbing. Or just annoyed him.)
SW5 – Empire Strikes Back : 2 kills - Admiral Ozzel and Captain Needa, in Vader's pour encourager les autres style of promotion. (Not seen, not counted: however many lower ranks are needed to get that cringing response from the bridge crew every time he walks by.)
SW6 – Return of the Jedi : 1 kill - The Emperor, a Really Bad Person, so of course that negates all of Vader's previous little indiscretions and proves - despite the fact that his mere presence can put people in fear - he really isn’t such a bad guy after all. (Not seen, not counted: however many of the Death Star II's construction team were used up as he found "new ways to motivate" the rest; things aren't on schedule when he arrived at the beginning of the movie, they are on schedule when the Emperor turns up after the Tattooine diversion. Was this thanks to triple-rate overtime bonuses? I doubt it...
If this is Vogler's interpretation of "not such a bad guy after all" (after all of that?) I'm intrigued to know how he'd define an out-and-out villain!
Our copy was misplaced a couple of days ago (now found again) and because I wanted to refer to it, I went looking on the Net to see what I could find. There are a couple of sites with PDF extracts (obviously the whole thing isn't going to be available, since it's in print) but I also found Vogler's original article, a seven-page memo written while he was a story analyst at Disney (which was applied directly to development for The Lion King; whether this was a good or bad thing is up to you.)
Since it was so short, one line jumped out at me from the memo, so much so that I doubted it was in the book at all; but yes, it's there (p.23 of the 2nd Edition.) In the memo it's about p.5 when printed out, otherwise Section 9.The Hero Seizes the Sword, and in both, Vogler's choice of words is a little sloppy.
"At this point the hero may settle a conflict with his father or with his shadowy nemesis*. In Return of the Jedi Luke is reconciled with both, as he discovers** that the dying Darth Vader is his father and not such a bad guy after all." (Emphasis mine.)
(*I personally have never considered "father" and "nemesis" sufficiently interchangeable to combine in one sentence.)
(**"Discovers"? He was told as much by Dad, and in case he and the audience still thought it was a villainous lie, had it confirmed by Yoda.)
It's fairly plain what resolution George Lucas had in mind for Luke and Vader's relationship (besides wanting to keep his cake as well as eat it - Daddy Darth is a really cool villain, and George wanted to hang onto that villainous coolness for as long as possible.) Even before I saw Return of the Jedi, I had a feeling that Vader was going to do right by Luke in the end, probably through some ironic accident that would give Vader his come-uppance and save Luke, preferably while trying again to convert or, finally convinced it would never work, kill him. Simple, satisfying and in keeping with the Saturday Morning Matinée* characterisations of the three movies. Vader was Not Nice.
(*Though often mentioned as a source for Star Wars and Indiana Jones, when I made a similar comment a few years back I had to explain it to my teenage nephew. How to feel old...)
How it actually played out could have worked if Vader had been a tragic failure tricked into wasting his life and talent, but who now couldn't do the same to his son (having killed the Emperor for suggesting Luke should take his place, not to save him.) Neither ending would leave Vader open to being described as "not such a bad guy". Redemption from more than six hours of black-masked heavy-breathing villainy shouldn't have been so simplistic - but then, Jedi had Ewoks in it, so "simplistic" was part of the territory.
Let's look at his personal body count. ("Personal" is taken to mean people (not droids) killed on-screen, even if out of frame or in another ship etc., by the character's direct action.) These figures are courtesy of Movie Body Counts, and, when looking beyond their restrictions and the limits of screen canon the count has to be much higher. Even allowing that Vogler wrote his article and based his comment on the "first" (second) three Star Wars films, Vader from the instant he stepped through that shattered doorway had gained and maintained his reputation by doing something off-camera, and it wasn't painting watercolours.
SW1 – Phantom Menace: 4 kills - pilots of Trade Federation ships. (This at the age of what, 10...? Vadekin started early.)
SW2 – Attack of the Clones : 17 kills - 3 on-screen sandpeople; 14 workers in the droid factory. (Not seen, not counted: the rest of the sandpeople tribe including women and children.)
SW3 – Revenge of the Sith : 24 kills - Count Dooku (a literally-disarmed prisoner); his own wife and various Jedi younglings (so that's what he was practicing for with the sandpeople women and kids; it's interesting to see that Lucas can be nastier than Spielberg, who tends to leave even the most annoying brats unscathed); various Trade Federation people and Jedi. (Not seen, not counted: other Trade Federation people and Jedi.)
SW4 – Star Wars : 8 kills - Captain of the consular ship (in a very hands-on way), Obi-Wan Kenobi, various X-wing pilots. (Not seen, not counted: anybody else whose lack of faith he found disturbing. Or just annoyed him.)
SW5 – Empire Strikes Back : 2 kills - Admiral Ozzel and Captain Needa, in Vader's pour encourager les autres style of promotion. (Not seen, not counted: however many lower ranks are needed to get that cringing response from the bridge crew every time he walks by.)
SW6 – Return of the Jedi : 1 kill - The Emperor, a Really Bad Person, so of course that negates all of Vader's previous little indiscretions and proves - despite the fact that his mere presence can put people in fear - he really isn’t such a bad guy after all. (Not seen, not counted: however many of the Death Star II's construction team were used up as he found "new ways to motivate" the rest; things aren't on schedule when he arrived at the beginning of the movie, they are on schedule when the Emperor turns up after the Tattooine diversion. Was this thanks to triple-rate overtime bonuses? I doubt it...
If this is Vogler's interpretation of "not such a bad guy after all" (after all of that?) I'm intrigued to know how he'd define an out-and-out villain!
